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Monday, September 28, 2009

How Turn 10 sabotaged Forza 3 by running its mouth

Turn 10 Studios, developer of the highly anticipated Forza Motorsport 3, has begun to foster quite an interesting reputation for themselves as time and time again the developer calls out rival racing studios with ludicrously absurd comments at demo showings and interviews. While it’s certainly somewhat admirable that the studio is confident in the quality of its upcoming racer, the remarks being spewed from game director Dan Greenawalt’s mouth are nothing short of pure and utter hyperbolic garbage. A recent interview with Xbox360Achievements.org highlights this fact all too well, and the consistency with which the studio lashes out indirectly (and sometimes very directly) against other racing developers is just laughable. Here’s a sampling of the truly ridiculous (and hilariously ignorant) quotes from the aforementioned interview to get us started.

I play a lot of racing games, including PC racing games and I have not seen anything that is even within years of what we’re delivering here.

Really? That’s so weird, because I could’ve sworn I’ve heard of this Gran Turismo game somewhere. And what about that GTR2 racer? Supposedly it’s pretty advanced too. Must be just a rumor.

We have lift, bump stops that can create a hell of an unbalance in the car, we even simulate the chassis stiffness that I’ve never seen in another game... where, like a Fox Body Mustang just twists under its own torque and it means that the tires can’t stay evenly attached to the road. We even simulate that.

Wow, that’s really deep. Strange then, that you can’t manage to simulate something as simple as a car hitting a concrete slab? It seems like that would be a more immediate concern than the way a Mustang reacts according to its own power.

I could go on and on with this material, and that’s from just a single interview. While I definitely respect that Turn 10 is trying to reignite the Forza flame so to speak, the fact that it’s effectively ignoring competitors like Gran Turismo 5 and even DiRT 2 is unbelievably bad practice. It’s not like Bungie presents a demo at E3 while ranting and raving about how there’s no other shooter on the market that handles the way Halo does. As a developer, you need to have a certain kind of reverence and respect for your competitors, even if they consistently outsell and outperform you. If anything, this should serve as inspiration to make your next project a labor of love that people can put up with the other guys side-to-side and say something along the lines of: “Wow, they really outdid themselves this time.”

With Forza 3, that is not the case. The hype over the much-improved graphics engine has led to a general feeling of disappointment as gamers finally got their hands on the recently released demo. The lighting model looks strangely “off”, illuminating the cars in a slightly cartoonish fashion that makes colors pop far too much and jaggies far too evident. Leading up to the release of the demo, trailers and gameplay videos never really made this fact apparent, but once I managed to get behind the poorly-rendered cockpit of the demo’s Mini Cooper (I’ve actually driven a Mini a few times in my life, and let me tell you, Forza does NOT represent the interior well) my hopes for a graphical competitor to Gran Turismo were dashed. Gran Turismo 5: Prologue, which released a little over a year ago, still manages to outpace Forza 3, all the while Forza is being heralded by the big wigs at Microsoft and many outspoken members of Turn 10 as the best-looking racer on the market. If the “market” doesn’t consist of DiRT 2 or any of the PS3-exclusive Gran Turismos, then yea, this statement would be 100% correct, but for those of us living in the real world, it’s complete and utter bullshit.

 

GT5 Ferrari Gran Turismo 5’s graphics easily rival real-life at times. 

 

But wait, you say. Forza is all about the under-the-hood performance calculations and rarely seen physics flourishes! While normally I’d be inclined to agree with you, these have little to no effect on roughly 90% of the driving experience. When you’re racing on the road, your car will handle pretty much like every other racing game out there with asphalt tracks (albeit less exciting because of the poor sense of speed, a recurring problem with the Forza franchise). The only time all these supposed “advanced calculations” come into play is in very, very rare situations, and even then, you likely won’t think to yourself: “OMG! That’s totally what the car would have done in real life!” What’s most disappointing about these physics, however, is the fact that crashing your car in Forza is painfully underwhelming. Even in a game like Need for Speed: Shift, which has comparable damage modeling (meaning it’s terribly lacking) makes crashes interesting by blurring the screen and violently shaking the camera while your car smashing the center divide creates a nasty crunch of bending metal and shattering glass. In Forza, there is nothing exciting or remotely thrilling about smashing your very expensive car into a wall. In fact, there’s nothing to marvel at in any way when your Audi R8 side swipes a reckless driver as he speeds past you, because the damage modeling is almost IDENTICAL to Forza 2’s. A scrape here, some paint removed there. The whole ordeal is so unspectacular it makes one wonder what the hell the team at Turn 10 has been doing for the last couple years. Granted, Gran Turismo 5’s damage modeling isn’t anything to write home about either, but at least bits and pieces fall off after impacts and doors swing off their hinges so that it’s apparent from even the cockpit view that your car has been affected by that 50 MPH head-on collision.

I could go on and on about Forza 3’s shortcomings, namely the absolutely dreadful cockpit view and pitiful sense of speed, but really I’m just going to let Turn 10 embarrass itself further and laugh my ass off when Gran Turismo 5 eventually comes out and Forza is left in the dust. It’s not often that I want a game to fail, and even more uncommon for me to want a developer to get humiliated, but the fact that Polyphony is speaking with gorgeous trailers and screenshots, while Turn 10 retorts with childish remarks and not so subtle insults makes me wonder just how hard the developer is trying to sabotage its upcoming release. Turn 10, you should be ashamed. Well played, Polyphony. Actions really are louder than words.

- Adriaan Noordzij

Love the article? Hate my guts? Check your fanboy rage at the door and leave a comment!

72 comments:

  1. Forza 3 is the Infinitive Racing Game this gen so shut up you pathetic sony leg humper and go cry in the corner.
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  2. Good read and Turn 10 are really getting arrogant
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  3. @ #1

    sorry you cant handle the truth faggot.. go have fun getting an rrod playing the shitty "racing sim" known as Flopza 3
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  4. I completely agree, I think Forza 3 is a complete letdown on many levels. I expected an innovative game but instead I got Forza 2 with a new paint job. I have no doubt that GT5 will be the best simulation to date.
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  5. I think NFS:shift is more of a racing sim compared to this Flopza 3..."the most definitive flop in a racing simulation
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  6. Only Sony faggots would disagree that Forza 3 is the Infinitive Racing Game this gen now go back to bieng 3rd in the console race you losers.
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  7. Okay, PP, I let you humiliate yourself once, but twice is just too much.

    It's "definitive," as in, it "defines" the racing genre. Say it with me: "Definitive."

    Carry on.
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  8. I'm definitely looking forward to GT5. I felt the innovative GTTV feature is going to be the darkhorse feature for this round of racing sims and not the car damage simulation. Simulated car damage is fine, and in a simulator it absolutely needs to be included regardless of potential gameplay, but what GTTV can become in its redesigned form won't just appeal to the racing game fan, but to the hardcore racing enthusiast, media agnostic.

    Forza 3 does not provide any inkling of an evolutionary step in this series and therefore deserves the same respect true gamers give to similar titles, notably Madden and the EA Sports brand. EA Sports, it's in the game...you bought last year. Sadly, Forza 3 feels like Forza 2 with a slight coat of polish, and although it isn't bad, it just isn't that great either.

    Also, lol @ infinitive.
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  9. Forza 3 is the Definitive racing game this gen while leaving poor GT5 in the dust gathering rust. Also not forgeting you poor sony droids who are left crying yet again for the delayed GT5.
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  10. xbox is for casual gamers who don't care about quality

    all the xbox games are mediocre noob games with average graphics

    enjoy living in the past, while disc swapping your games with outdated engines and sequels that fail to amaze real gamers
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  11. Lol @ #1

    It's okay xbot. You get to play Mario Kart on your Flop60. :)
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  12. Lol @ PP. Go eat shit 360 fangirl.
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  13. Ever since E3 2009, this Greenwalt character has been rambling his mouth about how his game is the "definitive racing sim". Its funny how he has to wait and see what GT series do, in order for him to improve his game. Its like he eats, breaths and lives Gran Turismo, and has a ridiculous obsession to outperform its own inspirational material.

    The funny thing about all of this: Deep down Greenwalt has an enormous fascination for Yamahuchi's work, and deep down he is his greatest fan. And he can only dream to ever do what Yamahuchi has.
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  14. Damn it Adeiaan why did you have to correct him, it was more entertraining to see he can't even grasp the English language.
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  15. Did I forget to mention that the "definitive sim of this generation" has no weather effects or night racing, so no xenon lights supported, talk about physics hu? guess they only work on sunny days
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  16. @#15: I'm a grammar Nazi, and it was just far too difficult to watch any more.

    That said, next time I'll let it run its course a little longer. :)
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  17. PS3>>>shit60

    GT5 will be and always has been better than flopza 3.
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  18. Forza is crap,it'll always be,the demo is huuuge letdown,what a waste,cant wait gt.(I have both systems)
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  19. pp has a small peepee!!!!1
    lololololololololololo;lololo
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  20. Im not going to rag on the 360 by no means. However, the arrogance this studio has shown is a product of their handlers. With Bungie being the exception, Microsoft has got to have the most cocky/garbage spewing individuals in the industry. Ill pass on Forza.
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  21. I really think that Forza 9 will be better than GT 11. Yep... Forza 9 will win the racing game war in 2045. I never played the game but who care... Who here think that you have to play a game to be able to review it ?
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  22. only reason flopza 3 is being allowed to talk is because gt 5 is trying to take the time needed to be the best unlike these guys
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  23. Screw xbox and ps3 Im getting a wii with Mario kart that's the definitive racing game lol
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  24. this greenwalt guy is like peter molyneux of the racing world :D hahahaha, i feel sorry for everyone now. the planet doesnt need 2 BS spreaders about a mediocre game! that said. i cant wait for GT5...

    PS3, "IT ONLY DOES EVERYTHING!"
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  25. Screw all this crap(GT5 is gonna be the best duh, everyone knows). Let's all go back to Cruis'n USA on the N64.
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  26. PS3- It only does everything, except for being the console of a shitty racing franchise such as FLOPZA 3
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  27. By experience in the last two editions..... I do not think that Turn 10 should be afraid of what so ever..... because as far as I'm concerned....
    they raised the bar with Forza 1 (otherwise we would still be playing with 6 cars on track, no on-line, no dammage and poor visual customization!) by surprising the whole gaming comunity that it was possible to outperform the Gran Turismo franchise in quality (anyone doubting.... go check out Metacritic). They pushed the package even further with Forza 2... (as far as I'm concerned, it is still the best critically aclaimed racing game this gen, even though it came out in 2007!!!!). Now the only prize remaining is to outperform the Gran Turismo franchise in retail (a very possible outcome this time around..... since the X-Box 360 has a bigger install base than the PS3).

    If Forza wasn't a serious competitor to Gran Turismo, would Gran Turismo fans even bother posting???? I don't think so..... Than you should all thank Turn 10 for showing to the world that you do not have to buy a PlayStation do play racing simulators on consoles!!!

    PS: For those thinking that Poliphony Digital garantees quality..... go check out the Gran Turismo PSP reviews......
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  28. Thank you "infinitely" for writing this article. Someone needed to say it eloquently and you have done so, here.

    If Greenwalt had just kept his arrogant mouth shut, people would probably be fairly impressed with Forza as at least a near-competitor to GT. But, since he insists on talking shit, we all scrutinize the flaws in the game far more closely and the whole "supreme confidence" schtick backfires in his face. Turn 10 is now handcuffed by it's own smacktalking. The minute I saw him talk shit at E3, I thought: "whoa. This asshole had better deliver...and in a BIG way...or it's gonna bite Turn 10 in the sales race."

    Anybody listen to James Brown? Greenwalt epitomizes the song "Talkin' loud, Sayin' Nothin'".
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  29. LOL at the first response. Does that mean if you could play with 2 players on the same screen simultaneously it would be the Split Infinitive Racing Game of this gen? Wow, that sounds spectacular! Jump in!
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  30. xbox is a decent console....i cant say more than that coz i dont own one...but so many have bought and enjoy it so there must be something good about it....
    the point under discussion is forza 3 is not as good as the studio keeps saying it is...
    there is no point in xbox bashing...ps bashing...wii bashing or even GT bashing....
    only forza bashing... :D
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  31. Oh my god ladies, get a grip! Flopza? Shit60? Sony droid? Listen to yourselves, you fucking retards. Grow a pair, stop acting like your 12.

    Yes its dissapointing, as in its a pile of shit, but to be frank, it always has been. play the dirt demo, then the forza one, and you'll literally believe your been punished. Its slow, and boring, and cumbersome.

    But come on. Stop acting like little shitbags. Its nothing to do with the ps3 or the 360, its just a shit game.
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  32. @ #30: I laughed out loud when I read that bit.
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  33. Forza 3 is probably a great game, but its true that the game fails to live up to the hype that Turn10 created with its arrogance.. putting it against GT5, or even GT5P its just pathetic... 16 cars on the track, 1080p, fully-rendered interiors and much superior car modelling in GT5P/5, against 8 cars per track, 720p, "half-rendered" interiors and MAYBE better track-sides (check GT5P London track, its amazing) in FM3.. comparing those two makes no sense since GT5P/5 delivers so much more...
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  34. Yet another blogger trying to get hits.

    A truly laughable article.
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  35. I have both systems and played and owned all Forza/Gran Turismo installments. Forza was always a boring title and forza 2 which I thought would be better was also crap with poor vehical designs. Gran Turismo has always pleased me with accurate detail and loads of features. Turn 10 are a bunch of little boys praising the Xbox 3shitty. I got the RROD twelve times and after I got it back from micro$oft in 2008 it gathered dust hey I'm looking at it right now it looks like a dust bunny what a piece of microshit. All I have to say is if you want the best go with the better which is Sony. The PS3 has not failed me yet and is well kept(and still shiny with no dust). Xbox fanboys are all american that bend over for american products which aren't always the best. Fuck turn 10 and forza 3 which will be the crapist game of this generation.
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  36. How does it feel like being in 3rd place also when Natal comes out xbox360 will be in first place and its got Kojima's seal of approval poor droids lost another sony's first party publisher.
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  37. Great article. In all fairness that vid posted IS NOT Gran Turismo 5, but a Ferrari promotional video made by Polyphony Digital.
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  38. @ #38: Thanks for the clarification. It was done on the GT5 engine, correct?
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  39. best article i have read in months! turn 10 built a GOOD racing game tht i will be playing on day one, but it does not hold a candle to gt5. end of discussion.
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  40. The developers on Forza (whatever they are called) are tailor made for Microsoft. Both run their mouths, and both always fail to back up their words. The dirty propoganda tactics that they hope are blurred into being reality by constantly mentioning these fallacies. If only people had a brain and would check their facts they would see that Forza isn't doing anything that hasn't been done 2 years ago. Combine everything in Forza 2 and GT5P and you are left with NO no or Original features. These guys are delusional.
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  41. @37: konami isn't a first party publisher, metal gear rising is coming out for PS3 and 360, so I would do a little more reading next time before you come out and say something like that
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  42. I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I love how some bitches get their panties all in a bunch over a video game. I'm going to enjoy both games. WAIT! WHAT? How the fuck can one person like both systems? Both F3 and GT5?

    Calm the fuck down. I love how when either side talk's about the other, they get all fucking pissy.
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  43. I have played Forza 3 demo, and the prolouge of gt5..

    If polyphony digital don't pull off something really graphically and physically spectacular from the sleeve, forza 3 is the true winner.. Dunno.. it just feels better!

    I'm also looking forward to Colin Dirt 2.. Looks just as good as forza 3 and GT5 if you ask me.. :)
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  44. Fuck you fanboi, when are you fucking kids gonna grow up/
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  45. Wow! You should re-name the site to sonyfanzone.org

    Honestly, I can't take this seriously. The author should be ashamed of himself for producing such garbage.
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  46. Nice job using a screenshot of the Enzo in your article that hasn't even been confirmed as an in-game shot, and is rumored to be CGI or touched up.
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  47. GT5 and forza are both games and not even close to being a sim what a bunch of butt pirates debating both these arcade games, they are fun for little timmies
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  48. @ #46: www.sonyfanzone.org was taken. I couldn't think of anything better.

    Looks like you found me out!
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  49. I completely agree. Forza Motorsport 3 has many things wrong with it, it still looks like it's going to be a great game, but Turn 10 shouldn't claim things that aren't true. If they really think they're that good, Forza Motorsport 3 should win the Game of the Year this year, but I bet it won't.
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  50. It's laughable that you people complain about the arrogance of several Forza developers, when in fact Sony have just as many. Remember E3 2006? "$599 US dollars"? "The PS3 is not a games console"? The doctored pictures of Killzone 2? The claim that Killzone was a Halo killer?

    And guess who paid a visit to Turn 10's studios, with notepads and cameras in hand: the developers of GT5:

    http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/blogs/turn_10s_forza_motorsport_blog/archive/2009/06/05/the-road-to-october-looking-beyond-e3-2009.aspx
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  51. And what's with the foul mouthed fanboys (from both sides)? They seemed to be getting worse and worse every gen.

    "Forza 3 is the Infinitive Racing Game this gen so shut up you pathetic sony leg humper and go cry in the corner."

    "sorry you cant handle the truth faggot.. go have fun getting an rrod playing the shitty "racing sim" known as Flopza 3"

    http://www.ps3attitude.com/new/2009/09/fanboys-industry-says-they-idiots/
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  52. LOL....

    i doubt xbots even know how does a real simulator drives...

    all they care about is forza's ricer features.
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  53. Meh. Why bother, I'll be getting both F3 and GT5 anyway.
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  54. The BOTTOM LINE is that neither this article nor the shitstorm that followed it would have been necessary if Turn 10 hadn't themselves labeled their game the "definitive" such game of this console generation. They will now HAVE TO PROVE IT. Unfortunately, it looks to me like Polyphony still has them beat, which makes Turn 10 look like a bunch of complete dipshits. Therefore, like the title of this well-written article says: they have sabotaged themselves.
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  55. I'll be buying both. I'm over this Sony/Microsoft fanboyism. I own all platforms since NES and they're all great machines with great games. Gaming is supposed to be about having fun, not this nonsense...
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  56. omg this is like sitting in a kindegarten of squabling 2 year olds about whos crayon drawing is better, do the words GROW UP mean anything to anyone its a console game not life and death
    (ps getting forza motorsport 3 sony can kiss my butt)
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  57. thats why i hate turn 10.
    and M$
    i wonder if turn 10 and arron greenburg are relatives.
    they certainly talk the same.
    both of those guys are so up themselves, i have never heard some one be so arogant and cocky its pathetic.
    O besides bobby kotik.
    they must be brothers or something.
    indeed, the apple does not fall far from the tree.
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  58. This article is a blatant rip off of everything I've been saying for the past month about Forza 3, Turn 10 and the vociferous Dan Greenawalt.

    Well done, it's spot on. :-)

    Sincerely,
    LordVonPS3.
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  59. gt was crap from day one and still is
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  60. Hey you guys.... before you bush down on Greenwalt for labelling his upcoming game as the DEFINITIVE racing game...... MAYBE YOU SHOULD REACT SIMILARLY TO POLIPHONY FOR BEING LABELLING THEIR GAME AS THE REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR for the last 10 years...... Well, ironic isn't it, that none of you Sony Fanboys see such a claim as arrogance!!! (I don't know about you..... but i suspect that if a hit a wall with my car at 300 Km/h..... i would get some kind of (visual) damage..... pretty funny simulation for a REAL DRIVING SIMULATOR....)
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  61. im sorry but for me its all about gameplay so i prefer burnout. gt was always boring, looked good, but boring
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  62. Great article, but you forgot to mention the time when the official Forza Motorsport 3 forums offered an exclusive downloadble car for voting for Forza in a poll against GT5 in a C|Net poll. Really sad thing is that Gran Turismo 5 still won.

    http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10256571-48.html

    Even the editor commented about it. IMO that's Turn 10 at their worst.
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  63. I still dont think they sabotaged Forza 3 in any way.... GT does not even attempt to have an AI or bump physics... cars stick to the road no matter how you hit them... I dont care about crashing into walls, i avoid them at all costs.. its the other cars im worried about.

    For you to think that GT5 is going to come out and miraculously be better then GT5P (again, with no AI) then i already know that this whole article is biased and a waste of my time
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  64. What a load of dribble... The majority of these comments are clearly written by kids unable to be in possession of BOTH an Xbox360 and PS3. While you lot fight over which is better for the rest of eternity, I'll sit back, and enjoy playing BOTH! :D
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  65. @ #53

    I doubt Gran Turismo fans know how a real driving simulator drives either... GTR2 on the PC shits all over GT5:P's handling physics any day of the week! As for Forza series... GT4 has more cars and tracks, but graphics, physics, and game depth, it's left for dead. Who wants to waste days sitting a million license tests? Piss off GT series.

    GT5 is nothing more than a parade lap for the car manufacturers to show off their latest and greatest!
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  66. Turn 10 being arrogant?? Really...I didn't know it was bad that a developer is bragging about their product... How about Polyphony tricking millions of people into paying $40 for a DEMO! That's pretty low right there. You bought it, didn't you? Sucker...
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  67. IF YOU WANT A REAL RACING SIM CHECK OUT IRACING.COM .. THE PC OWNS ANY CONSOLE HANDS DOWN.. SORRY TO SAY SONY FAGGOTS
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  68. Wait a minute,, no wait a month,,,, ah hell wait another year, whats that you say dude? GT5's coming out? THIS YEAR? 2009? REALLY?

    AT LAST,,, THE MAIN REASON I BOUGHT A 250gb SLIM PS3 IS FINALLY ON ITS WAY.

    THEE MOST BEAUTIFUL LOOKING RACING SIM ON THE MARKET, and she drive real nice too, and that's just the prologue i'm talking about!

    I own an xbox360 too, and i do love Forza Motorsport2, but when i got my hands on the demo of their next installment i have to admit i was very dissapointed with how it played and how it looked in comparison to the current FM2, and so the buzz word this year im sorry to tell you 360 die hard's IS GT5, (for me anyway).

    Anyone in the Turn10/FM3 camp PLEASE have some laser eye surgery done or maybe get some new eyeball's, geez anything to help you poor old boys see the difference in graphical quality between your beloved and much over hyped FM3 and the GT5 PROLOGUE,,,, prologue for crying out loud, not even the full game damn it,

    On another note, i love the paint editor in FM2 although i hate the layer glitching,
    Anyway my point is - i just hope that there will be a paint editor in GT5 when its finally released, because to be honest polyphony digital will do a much better job on that too!

    I'm still going to buy FM3 after all i said.

    And to anyone thinking about commenting on this subject, HAVE YOU PLAYED BOTH GT5 prologue AND FM2 and the FM3 demo?

    @68 & all other PC user's,,,
    we are talking about racing game's on CONSOLE'S NOT PC's, and yes i do own a pc but not the like's you can get made up in a shop, mine's is for cad, and if you want to talk pc power buy a tesla or something!
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  69. Any self respecting American who willingly boasts and supports a shitty, overpriced, japanese product over a far superior American one should be ashamed of themselves. Meanwhile the gooks are laughing all the way to the bank with your foolish American money. Screw sony. Overpriced GARBAGE! The worst controller design ever. Not enuf games cuz the devs have a hard time with the cell processor(overhyped trash). My PC has a far better processor. So go ahead dummies and support jap crap. Forza 3 is better in every way. PERIOD. PS3 has lost. A failed peice of jap crap. Buy American. Fools!!
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  70. Now that GT5 is out.

    Let know this "Sony fanboys": How does your ass feel?

    FORZA 3 raped GT5 on metacritic. LOL
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